That’s absolutely crazy, in Australia you could probably get a 30 kW commercial system installed for that. On my house I paid about US$6.5K for a 6.6 kW of panels and a 5 kW inverter, years ago. You’d get the same thing for a bit under US$5K today here.
For the price you’re talking about, you could also get a system with 15 kW of panels with a good 20-30 kWh of battery storage too!
It's the regulation cost that's really hurting us.
Just the required paperwork for the permit in my region cost ~2.5k. structural engineer was 800, architecture diagram was 800, certified electrician stamp on the plans was 800.
Add in the extra cost to facilitate RSD (~5k after mlpe devices, and extra wiring) and tack on the cost for utility interconnection agreements.
Then deal with the NEC requiring UL listed items with no/very little cross certification with things like CE which effectively means you can't buy equipment from China, at least not without a US shop taking a huge markup for branding/certs.
---
Overall, it's just a mess. I walked away from the project (completed, all approved) with a huge dose of skepticism for the permitting/certification/approval process.
This is, as you say, absolutely bananas level of regulation. Here in the UK most panels are "permitted development" (bypass all the local government permitting entirely, as for small sheds and fences etc). There are two utility schemes, one for <3.6kW which costs £30 (G98) and a more complicated one that costs a few hundred £ for larger ones (G99).
"Balcony solar" (<800W) with absolutely zero paperwork (edit: I'm wrong, still needs G99) has just arrived to the UK.
Currently in the U.K. they have to have U.K. appeal not just standard eu approval. Hopefully this will be fixed by next year and prices will
Be more reasonable.
Hopefully too regulators will
Change to allow battery
Storage as long as it’s not pore than 800W inverter.
"Plug in solar" (as "Balcony solar" is called in here in the UK) needs G98, not G99 approval and is free for plug in (<8kw). This is just one form to fill out, and the DNO can't refuse approval (assuming you fill out the form). Think of it more as registration than approval.
Current lowest costs from national retailers that I've found (been looking today as it happens!) is City Plumbing - £336 for 475w, £480 for 1050w (panels with 800w max inverter).
A lot of people in the U.S. are trying to innovate. I think the problem is the fossil fuel industry has been paying government, probably for decades, to implement legal roadblocks at all levels, from individual homes up to states and regions, to non-fossil fuel energy. I think they've also had a hand, at least at the propaganda level, in pushing back on electric vehicles.
Personally, I'd love to see the United States, and the rest of the world, decrease its reliance on oil. We won't get off it in any of our lifetimes, but we should move in that direction. I like diversifying. Any bit helps. Solar in Australia and Arizona. Maybe less so in northern Maine. Wind turbines where there's wind. I personally don't have any aesthetic objection to them. I think they look kind of cool. And certainly better than smokestacks. And so on.
Were there any parts of the process you felt could be reasonably chipped away at through improved beaureaucratic processes or lightweight advocacy?
I've been doing some advocacy work related to balcony solar mostly from a conceptual standpoint but am a renter and don't know much about the actual costs and process behind installing roof panels. I'm curious to know whether there are any low-hanging fruit we could organize around to reduce the regulatory burden on the consumer.
That’s absolutely insane. I just had 5400Wp of panels installed with 15kWh of battery storage and it was ~€12k total. The battery was a bit over half of the costs. That’s the total cost, hardware and labour.
No need for permits for rooftop solar and the only dealings I had with the energy company was filling out an online form to register it. Took maybe 2 minutes.
I just did the same in Norway but without the battery and 12.5 kWp panels for about the same price. Solaredge inverter and some Italian 450W panels.
400V TN 3P grid with export where I am paid spot. Had to fill in a form online that got approved automatically. The energy company (separate from the grid company) automatically detected my export and started deducing the sales of solar from the bill.
The installer had to confirm the installation to the Enova government entity to release my €3k subsidy though.
My family got an fixed three phase setup with a 12kWp, 8 kWh battery (BYD) and a Hybrid Inverter (SMA) alongside a Level 2 22 kW EV charger for a grand total of 16.000€.
My plugin solar setup was a DIY with 1kWp of panels + an 800W inverter and did cost a total of 350€, including the mounting hardware.
Your numbers are way too high. I live in the very expensive San Francisco Bay Area and my system 6kW before federal tax credits was 16k to install in 2021. After credits it was < $12k. I have a friend in Tucson AZ who just paid $12K for a 4kW system with no subsidies.
I did not add a battery because at the time it would have doubled the price. Also, because I have net metering the battery never pays itself off.
The US is getting fleeced! 8 years ago it cost me about $10k AUD to install 6kW. Yes, it came with a $2.8k subsidy but still we are talking about a third.. 8 years ago.. And I paid extra for a Fronius inverter.
Australia pays their tradies higher wages than solar installers in the US, and still has far cheaper costs.
Here's a long podcast episode talking about why it's so much more expensive in the US versus Australia, with a solar expert from Australia that had just added a bunch of C&I solar here in the US:
As an Aussie you should know the American way, pay executives or management absurd amounts and the people who actually get their hands dirty get paid as little as possible.
The far lower costs in Australia are not due to executive pay, it's due to basic efficiency. Americans are doing things in horrendously wasteful ways, because the system is set to act that way, and changing our system of government is too difficult due to political infighting. One of many examples in the article:
> These things are highly optimized that companies will try to do the scheduling so they’re doing two or three jobs on the same street or in the same suburb on the same day, so they don’t have to drive across town to do the second job. If there’s a delay of a couple of days, it’s because they’re trying to make sure that they’re going to do your neighbors at the same time they’re going to do yours. The thing that costs you money in contracting is what they call truck rolls. I believe in the US there’s something like five or six truck rolls per solar installation. In Australia, it’s as few as one or two.
See also the US healthcare system. Or residential building.
> Americans are doing things in horrendously wasteful ways, because the system is set to act that way, and changing our system of government is too difficult due to political infighting. One of many examples in the article:
What system exactly. Offices ?
> See also the US healthcare system.
The US healthcare is full of suits getting commissions and powerpoints.
It is well known in Australia that you can make a lot of money working as a tradie. Better than software developers do here that's for sure. You are lucky if you can get a tradie to step foot inside your house for less than $200 USD, then the hourly costs start running away pretty quick.
$200 is about the going rate to get somebody to show up in the US as well (DC-metro, specifically). Maybe not for a generic handyman (though that's increasingly true as well), but somebody with a license and training (electrician, plumber).
That's why I installed my 13kw system myself. I saved a ton of money, assuming you don't equate time with money, otherwise it will have cost me a fortune. It was a great learning experience, and quite fun.
Same boat here. I installed my own ground mounted array at double the capacity for half the quoted price from the local installer, even with an electrician coming in to do last mile hookup. Learned a ton. Got a couple fun new tools. Already have my next spot picked out.
In Germany there is no VAT for solar installations - I'm not aware of any other "subsidies".
We (northern part of Germany) installed 7 KW panels with 10 KW battery for €15K in 2024. My neighbor is installing 10 KW panels with 10 KW battery for €18K this week. So it seems the total costs have not dropped any further in the last 2 years.
A lot of the "labor" costs are just regulatory/permitting in disguise. An expedited approval regime with standards such that, permits-wise, installing solar panels was as easy as installing an EV charger would save a ton of money.
This is significantly more over-built than what you are describing, but there is a company building along this idea[0]. Trailer you can drag to location, unfurl the solar panels which then charge the batteries. Being marketed for disasters and military.
I've seen some promising results from solar fences. Because the panels are getting so cheap you can offset the efficiency loss by buying more. Plus, because they are vertical and double sided they get more sunlight earlier and later in the day.
That actually sounds like a viable regulatory hack. Technically an "EV" with "V2G capability", but actually it's a truck full of batteries with solar panels hanging off it.
Eh, it's not unique, it's just that the American ones seem to be so much more empowered, excessive, and capable of generating news and social media headlines.
The UK variant seems to have more traditional failure modes of "excessive charges for maintenance of communal areas": https://parliamentnews.co.uk/tales-of-intimidation-excessive... , but people are still capable of having the occasional fistfight or protracted legal dispute about the wrong kind of hedge in a more informal, adhoc way.
Following the great american "mobile home" tradition. Slap a couple wheels under any object and it is magically removed from countless regulatory rules.
Generally correct. Here in Washington I could get Signature Solar to ship me 31 excellent Canadian Solar bifacial panels on a pallet for $9200 plus tax and shipping (so add another grand or so). This would be 21kW of solar (plus a bit if bifacial gain kicks in), which is a ton - you could even do some winter work with that, if angled correctly.
This setup would cost north of $50k (possibly north of $75k, depending) if installed by contractors. Labor costs are extremely high here, since COL is extremely high.
Rooftop solar generally requires professional installation. Balcony solar, as discussed in the article, does not require professional installation and simply plugs directly into an outlet.
Depends on where you are. I can DIY the physical mounting parts of a rooftop install where I live (San Francisco), but a licensed electrician needs to do (or at least supervise) the wiring.
I do wonder if having an electrician come by after the fact to inspect it counts as "supervising", though.
Here in NM, you can take a "homeowner's solar exam", and if you pass (75%) you can do the full install, including connecting to the grid, yourself.
The exam is much harder than one might expect, but if you're reasonably competent with residential wiring, far from impossible. It covers a bunch of stuff that is irrelevant for 90% of all residental solar installs, naturally.
No, it is very, very, very far from the full electrician exam. Still a lot more than one might expect from the open book aspect, and the amount of the NEC it actually covers.
California just passed "balcony solar" but requires G99 certification, which is, of course, slightly different than the G98 that everyone else on the planet uses.
That pricing is insane. I had 11.3 kWp of panels + 48 kWh of batteries installed in the Bay Area a few months ago, for $40k (shoutouts to Potrero Energy).
I designed / built / installed an 11kw system with 55kwh of batteries in 2024. It was a fun hobby for a year, I loved it. Grid buyback is only $0.03-$0.04/kwh (while cost is $0.37-$0.42/kwh) so, not really worth it. We live among tall trees, but still managed to generate 75% of our yearly solar needs last year.
Permitting was new for me and it was tough to navigate alone, but definitely possible.
Yes, but... I just did a solar install, the utility is likely to confirm you have a building permit for the array, and the utility came by to verify the shutoff works.
If you don't have utility approval to connect, you won't get net metering benefits, although you could offset active use (and if you had battery storage, I guess you could make it work). At least my meter doesn't run backwards, it has a count for energy in and a count for energy out. If we didn't have utility approval and had significant energy out, I'm guessing there would be questions. We have a fairly generous tarrif, and our system doesn't make sense without utility approval --- we generate on one meter and use on another meter and rely on meter aggrigation for the generation and use to offset, and they will offset 1 for 1, once the account gets fully set up.
You might want to check on that net metering. A lot of utilities are moving toward net metering for a specified time (10-12 years or whatever) then moving to net billing. So once you hit the time limit they buy it from you like you're a producer at .03/kwh or whatever their purchase/production cost is.
Well, we already installed the system, so it's too late to change :P
Our utility is still offering 1 for 1 net metering for new installs (accumulated credit expires at the end of March every year) and have not proposed a new rate schedule. They say that existing connected systems will be able to remain on the current schedule indefinitely. That's the best I can do for the future at this point.
If it does change for us in a negative way, I'll have to bite the bullet and buy an electric car and charge when the sun is up. :P Hopefully negative changes happen later rather than sooner.
It depends on where you live. Some places will let you do everything yourself (though you may need to get permits), other places will let you mount the panels but not let you do the electrical, others will let you do the electrical but require an electrician to sign off on it, etc.
Yet another data point: ten years ago it was £5,500 for a 3.9kW system. The largest possible on the "simple" permitting scheme. I did however have to spend another £1000 a few years later on retrofitting bird-proofing. You don't want to build a pigeon farm by mistake.
At that date I got into the feed-in-tariff scheme, and it has long since paid for itself just in cheques mailed to me by the utility.
Has no one been paying attention to how Ukraine/Russia and now Iran has been targeting civilian infrastructure? All of Spain's electricity was down last year from a cyberattack. This is completely a new line of threat that we need to address.
There are significantly better targets than fields of solar panels. There are 132 oil refineries in the country. Taking out even one would have immediate repercussions to energy security which are not easily rectified.
There are probably only a handful of backbone transmission routes which serve tens of millions of people. These are isolated and unprotected and could likely be disabled with a loaded truck plowing into a critical piece of infrastructure.
There are things called distribution yards, they are very distinct on google maps, can't be hidden. They were successfully targeted by US in 1990s Yugoslavia war.
It does not take much to bring down electricity distribution.
Utility companies are not incentivized to lower prices because it means less money for them. Do you remember when power companies told people to conserve power and then people successfully did this? And then they raised rates because they weren't making enough money? This happens in California ALL THE TIME. I've lived here 30 years in Silicon Valley and it's the biggest scam that no one talks about. It happens with electricity and water. With water its even more egregious because they told us to conserve water because of the "drought" but once the drought was over, they raised rates because people weren't using enough water. My connection fee to water is over $100/month without spending a drop of water. That's why I stopped conserving water and water my lawn every single day because it turns out that my water costs are only about 1/3 of the actual water bill costs so fuck it!
It's the same playbook over and over again, there's no incentive to lower rates at all because it's an easy way to make money over an entire population of tens of millions of people.
Now PG&E is fighting to charge solar panel owners $100+/month just for the privilege of being connected to the grid. That would make having solar panels even more expensive than not having solar panels which is utter hypocrisy but no one seems to care or point this out. It's a complete and utter scam.
EDIT: I forgot to mention last year the rates were $0.37-0.45 per kWh, until this year when they implemented a base fee of $25/month, so they lowered it to $0.33-0.45/kWh. Rates in Nevada are 1/4 of that.
2015: $0.17-0.33 per kWh
2020: $0.24-0.38 per kWh
so prices have more than doubled in 10 years. Fucking criminals.
I live in Florida, and I'm building a water battery, so I can freeze it at night when electricity rates are cheap, and use it to cool the house during the day.
The day after the system goes live, they'll probably announce flat rates for any time of day, just to f' with me. :(
You wouldn't happen to be sharing this builds information publicly would you? I can fully respect however if you are not.
I am a staunch DIY serial entrepreneur techie that has used my grey goo to build and sell a few companies and my time now is spent similar to yours although using a different application of physics. I too am motivated, just as you are, in my efforts to apply what I know to further reduce my energy costs which will not stop rising for quite some time.
You really made my day with this post and I hope we can find more folks like ourselves from your share because in time 'dogfooding' new ideas at home will lead to new applicable discoveries for all.
> The day after the system goes live, they'll probably announce flat rates for any time of day, just to f' with me. :(
Every system like yours works to flatten the prices, but it looks like a pretty big swing between peak and off peak pricing today, so it'll probably be a while before flat pricing again.
I would care more about the broken tax system if the politicians didn't waste our tax money. Stop the fraud and the corruption and the incompetence and then let's talk about increasing taxes.
$24 B unaccounted for and lost that was supposed to be for homelessness.
$12 B already spent on high speed rail and they want $120 B more.
$50 B in EDD unemployment fraud during the pandemic.
This is just in California in the last year or two.
How much more fraud and corruption and incompetence is there that we just don't know about?
There is no way I will agree to any increase in taxes just to see it wasted and going to corruption and political buddies on every side of the aisle.
>Stop the fraud and the corruption and the incompetence and then let's talk about increasing taxes.
Zero taxes is the only right answer. Any talk of taxation means that you have already given in to being exploited, because it's a slippery slope. Let's be realistic - corruption will never end. The only way to reduce it is to starve the beast.
I had the same question. I'm guessing that they tried to commit suicide or something but didn't think we could handle hearing that so they didn't mention it in the article.
I used Lotus Notes back in the day. The author is vastly overstating how useful it was. It was mostly useless and overcomplicated most things. Yes, many of the concepts are being used today but at its time, it was an feature that was waiting for a use case.
Why would anyone not take 5 minutes to research a major purchase? They have Internet access!
I mean obviously I expect Grandma not to know, but anyone that knows enough to connect to the internet knows how to use a search engine.
Corpos get away with blatant factory malware and security negligence because consumers are so predictably unwilling to research anything beyond what their social media algorithm of choice shows them as they scroll.
