Recently I've gotten to a point where I am put off when a clearly vibe coded website asks for money.
I have seen too many examples of people trying to earn money on apps they clearly vibe coded in an hour. Why would I pay for that - might as well make it and sideload it myself. I might even publish it for free to the app store to spite them.
I really don't think you are in a position to be asking for money if you just made something using an LLM. You didn't put in much work yourself, and anyone could replicate it for the "low cost" of their LLM subscription.
> they clearly vibe coded in an hour. Why would I pay for that - might as well make it and sideload it myself
Deal! Make a screen recording of you doing the same thing (well, instead of Switzerland let's say Austria, since Switzerland is already done) and I'll pay you 15 bucks.
Why would I buy a potato when I could grow one myself. Why do I give a busker money when I could play the real track on spotify. Why do we give anyone any money? Why don't we just do everything ourselves?
So do it. Everything AI assisted I've made has involved a ton of work. The only difference AI has made is that I've increased the level of my ambition and avoided a ton of things that were previously blockers.
I think whether it requires a lot of work is not the most important factor. The important factor is how easy it is to replace it. If it was made with AI I expect it to be easily copiable with AI. Therefore it doesn't make much sense to spend a lot, if any, money on it.
"Just a few prompts" is the new "can do that in a weekend". In reality it still takes a while to build everything, think about what features you want to have and how to prioritize them, how to build a good UX / UI, set up payment providers etc.
Not saying you are wrong, but I just wanted to share that if you build the software for yourself, a lot of requirements just vanish. like you dont need payment providers or support multiple users, etc.
Well, then do it! If it's so simple and so offensive to you that you might actually copy this project and publish it for free, then PLEASE do it - I'll happily download your copy for free. Just make sure you fit it within an hour.
>Why would I buy a potato when I could grow one myself.
Because growing fruits is hard.
>Why do I give a busker money when I could play the real track on spotify.
Because playing music is hard.
This project is just "I handed https://arnismc.com/ to Claude and it generated maps from the open data that the Swiss government puts out for free. Oh and also I'm charging you for the slop"
> This project is just "I handed https://arnismc.com/ to Claude and it generated maps from the open data that the Swiss government puts out for free. Oh and also I'm charging you for the slop"
Why does this matter? I see the AI detractors still can't cope with the fact that you're allowed to charge for AI generated work. You have to be insane or severely demented to try doing something like this by hand.
As a follow up I just went and looked at the arnismc project since I haven't heard of it. At least it's written in Rust, which is respectable but it's only ~200k loc of Rust? And most of it is also 100% LLM generated by the looks of it?
> Why does this matter? I see the AI detractors still can't cope with the fact that you're allowed to charge for AI generated work.
It's interesting that you immediately call them an AI detractor because they refuse to pay for something that's low effort. You're not entitled to someone's money and people certainly aren't required to pay for something if they think they can just make it themselves. You're complaining about a bed of your own making, where you want to act like it requires a lot of effort while people replicate it effortlessly.
I'm sorry, I didn't realize we're on a forum where you're not allowed to criticize how people price things. My mistake, I'll be sure to tell other people to censor their posts ahead of time.
Likewise, others are free to criticize your criticism.
My point is it's silly to be upset about others charging for products that are easily vibe coded. If it's that easy to make, and they are charging too much, then someone else (it could even be you!) will come along and undercut them.
Right. My point with that comment was to mirror fezoracer's comment that "you are not entitled to someone else's money and people aren't required to pay for something they can make themselves"
Both are strawman arguments, so my mistake on mine.
Because if you're a talentless hack, you could have least have the decency to not charge for open data (that Swiss taxpayers have already paid for). There is nothing original, creative, new to this project.
Google Maps is absolutely not open data lmao. A single read of their terms of services threatens you about twenty times about the consequences of copying, caching or looking the wrong way at their tiles, metadata, map styles, reverse geocoders and any other service.
Go to the fundamentals. Assuming that this is low effort, if this is low value, it will die sooner than later. If this is high value, soon there would be incentive for someone to do a clone and charge $1 less to compete.
Why do people go to restaurants and pay significantly more when they can just buy the ingredients and cook at home? Those damn chefs make my food in 15 minutes.
Just tally up how long it takes to shop, cook at home, and clean up, and multiply it with the rate at $dayjob. I am pretty sure for most people on Hacker News the figure will be significantly higher than at a restaurant, and we would have to adopt a similar working style to bring the cost down, like buying and preparing in bulk, focusing on a few dishes, cooking for multiple people at once, etc.
I am not exactly a fan of this kind of comparison unless one can actually freely allocate one's time, but it is illustrative.
What you say is right in principle, but the difference in cost between raw food ingredients and ready-to-eat meals from a supermarket is huge (ten times or more) and in comparison with the same food bought in a restaurant it is even greater, of up to 50 times or even 100 times.
Because of this great price difference, it is not very difficult to optimize how you cook in order to reduce the time spent with that down to a level that would save money even by your accounting method. Moreover, when you cook your own food the greatest advantage is that you know precisely the quality and the quantity of the ingredients that are included and that may be enough to make it worthwhile.
For instance, I normally eat only food that I cook myself from raw ingredients, but I spend little time for that. I buy some ingredients from a supermarket once per week, which requires about a half of hour. Other ingredients I order from an online shop and they arrive at my home.
Cooking requires each day about one hour, i.e. about a half hour for each of the 2 meals I eat, but most of each half hour is waiting for food to be cooked in a microwave oven or for it to cool down, when I can work or do any other activities. Only about 10 minutes are needed at each meal with things like paring and slicing vegetables, mixing ingredients and washing dishes. I bake even the bread that I eat, instead of buying it. Cooking with a microwave oven allows a lot of shortcuts in comparison with traditional methods, e.g. many dishes that require stirring when done on a stove do not require it when done in a microwave oven, which frees you to do other things. The same is true with bread, which does not require the traditional kneading of the dough when done in a microwave oven, but you can use an excess of water (or milk) that makes the dough fluid enough to mix it easily and this is sufficient and the bread will grow tremendously anyway.
Years ago, I was wasting much more time with cooking, so I typically cooked in a weekend day the food for all week and I just reheated it every day, but after gaining more experience I could reduce the required time until I could afford to cook only immediately before eating, because the time needed for that is short enough.
Nonetheless, when cooking for an entire family while having a job that occupies most of your time, probably only the method with cooking in a weekend day for all week is feasible.
Why do people go to real restaurants, with chefs who actually cook things, when they can cook at home? Possibly the quality of the food, atmosphere etc.
Why do people go to pub restaurants, where one of the overworked staff will put a frozen meal in a microwave until it goes "ding", then slop it onto a plate for you? Probably not the same reasons, and you'd expect a lot cheaper, though not as cheap as the same microwave meal from the supermarket.
Do people go to what they think is a real restaurant, because its marketing has diddled them, but find out it's actually a pub restaurant when they get there, replete with low-effort slop? If they do, I hope they leave a terrible review and don't come back.
Interesting division you make there, I go to both "real", higher end restaurants and "low grade" pub restaurants. For me, the the reason is the same, convenience, laziness and lack of my expertise and willingness to cook.
Obviously I can judge a place based on the quality of service and food, but that's not the reason I've gone there in the first place.
How do you feel about AI generated music? There is an artists who calls themself "Nick Hustles" that makes a lot of funny soul/funk tracks. You can listen on YouTube or Spotify. It feels like a different type of Weird Al Yankovic -- the humor is a bit more adult. Honestly, I'm fine with it, but I can I understand if you feel different.
Not GP but the value of AI music to me is $0. It had its one time novelty moments ("look what AI can do") and can fill the background as any $0 muzak before could. But as anyone, me included can generate songs like that infinite times makes it so common it's lame. There's no scarcity of AI songs, why should I be impressed with any that come up?
Plus it seems Suno still hasn't managed to figure the static noise creeping up as the song goes on (compare the sound of the hi-hats at the start vs. the end)
This feels like the same argument all over again. Think about the open source projects who are posting new rules like: "No AI/LLM usage is allowed!" Yet, there are many cases where you cannot tell if AI/LLM was used. For the Nick Hustles track that I shared, you cannot tell.
I recall in the 1990s a big argument about using vocoders in the production of pop music to adjust the tone of a singers voice. Many critics were quick and loud to say the users were no longer "real artists". Really, those critics have been left in the dust. In modern music production, vocoders are now commonplace.
I have come to terms with code being replaced by AI, even though some of it could be described as art created by a skilled artist (see: Animal Well). Most of it has utility first and foremost, and should be secure from attacks and optimized. If AI can do those things better than humans, then commercial software should move to that direction to be better utilized.
I do not share the same sentiment regarding drawn art or music and will try my best to support artists who don't need AI to perform/create. Modern music production already is using AI to its fullest extent for sure, its their loss. I've never listened much pop and instead have always tried to support people who actually have more skills in their toolset than just writing lyrics. My most listened genres atm include jazz, psychedelic rock and metal.
> For the Nick Hustles track that I shared, you cannot tell.
I accept that the future is bleak and there will be many cases where I won't know until someone points it out. It has happened a couple of times already. Always a big disappointment, then I shrug it off and go back to artists I know. I'm not alone in feeling this disappointment. [1]
> Many critics were quick and loud to say the users were no longer "real artists". Really, those critics have been left in the dust. In modern music production, vocoders are now commonplace.
How is this an apt analogy? Yes, those critics are better left in the dust, a signal modifier (vocoder) is just a signal modifier. Suno creates whole songs, skipping all the skills needed to even be a musician. Are you seriously comparing the two?
Also if that analogy worked, this "gotcha" doesn't really work for me as I never haven't really liked modern music production where playback is more and more common live. Multiple times I've thought of organizing a "live-only" festival where only simple setups are allowed to allow artists to show how skilled they really are, but I've realized that 1) most pop artists won't go there to show their lack of skills 2) jazz festivals exist for already skilled musicians.
I personally think there will be some "no AI used" label for artists, much like there is for organic food, and people like me who value human skills & craftmanship and want to support that kinda lifestyle can use that labeling when making purchases. Much in the similar fashion as with organic label nowadays I predict it will be gamed, there will be disappointments, but it will on a longer run be better than not having anything like that. It is to make a statement, it is to support local, smaller artists and reject the norm.
Right, but the value of the same music just generated by a human was also $0. If the tracks are effectively background music it doesn't matter how they are made - the value is nothing.
Were I thinking of giving money to a cause, I would consider it a good thing that $20-100k of it wasn't going to building a website that they could otherwise build nearly for free. I'd rather my money go toward solving the core problem they're raising the money for.
If your only measure of value is human labour just say that. Whether it's AI or not is irrelevant at that point if that's your stance.
Obviously anyone can make anything once they've seen it implemented from someone else's idea. Maybe sometimes the idea is the value in itself, the action of taking it from zero to product is just a means to distribute the idea.
> Whether it's AI or not is irrelevant at that point if that's your stance
The human brain works with pattern recognition. Regardless of whether I think that llms are great or not, right now they're vastly used to produce slop (I know it doesn't have to be the case), and because of the aforementioned pattern recognition we are largely being trained to recognize ai-generated content as slop.
There's really only one logical outcome:
If you're trying to sell something to me and you have a vibe-coded website, it doesn't matter how great your product is, I'll never even get to see it because it's slop-by-default.
And you don't even have to bring up AI at all to see how that's a bad idea. AI is flooding everything, isn't it a basic marketing strategy to differentiate yourself from the rest?
I disagree. What might be "a few prompts in claude code" for you, could be a lot of work for someone else. Not everyone is comfortable setting up a domain name and hosting etc... and if you provide value, why not ask for something in return?
It's incredibly sad that somehow knowing how to navigate websites made for complete idiots (domain registrars) is considered worth paying for. How many middle-men do you want to pay?
With programming becoming boring and AI looming, my almost finished electricians' education from high school does come to mind from time to time.
A friend of mine ended up actually becoming an electrician, and its clear there's a shortage of able-minded people in that industry. In Norway electrician is one of those "never amounted to anything so this is the last resort" jobs, even if it shouldn't be. Simply by being able to follow instructions you beat most of the competition. The pay isn't half bad (around average national pay) and there are plenty jobs that require you to use your brain and vary wildly in what you do from day to day. Sounds like a lot of fun.
Do you need to work as an apprentice for 2 years before you get that electrician license in your country? In many states of US, it ranges from 1 year to four years.
In many European countries you don't need a license for being an electrician, you may need to register somewhere although that won't be very hard. But you do need to follow the national rules and guidelines while working, which is why an education or applying to a large firm where they'll teach you on the job is not a bad idea.
I think this is a bad plan B, but maybe just because I don't think a good plan B exists.
Do you know what everyone has told me about the end of software? Get into the skilled trades. Become an electrician, welder, plumber etc...
For a couple of years, if you're experienced you'll probably do well. But 5 years from now every displaced SWE and white collar worker will have their apprenticeship.
The main thing I think technical people forget is that just because a protocol calls for transferability being a required feature (not that it really is here), it really doesn't matter if implementing it isn't strictly necessary for the protocol to work. That's one of the reasons why we have a bajillion different OAuth and OIDC implementations that plug into existing account systems in various ways, from being the only way to log in to being an optional way of logging in to an account that can also have an e-mail and password set. Developers are busy, and often implement just what they need to plug in to the OIDC providers their PM wants, and nothing more.
Both Passkeys and OIDC are vendor lockin enablers due to these design choices.
I wish the next standards would keep this in mind.
One of the highlights in this for me is that we are starting to see clean room ports of software that companies would actually sue to protect.
Clearly the old "nobody would re-implement this" protection no longer works. I think we may stand on the brink of software losing a lot of it's magical DMCA protections, because it no longer matters. Or worse, the law becomes stricter.
I responded. The agent happily "nodded along" as I explained how I haven't yet seen any real great benefits from ai. Sure there are some things but always at the cost of something that i think matters more. I use LLMs daily fwiw.
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