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Do be careful with the spray foam insulation, I've known a couple of folk who have had to spend a fair bit to put right the side effects caused by poorly done spray foam insulation.

Can't be AI output, there are too many sylables in the second line...

But "Pull poems out of my ass" would work ;)


Glad to hear that an AI hallucinating an 8 syllable second line in a haiku would get it pass your detection, lol.

In all seriousness, poem is a single syllable for many.


Second line is 7 syllables though?

Poem is two.

In American English, poem is pronounced as rhyming with "tome"

I could imagine in British English it might be a two-syllable "poh-ehm" though


If you're from part of the US where they don't talk right, sure ;)

It's two in Merriam-Webster. If it were a song it would fly, but for a haiku I'm throwing a flag on the word-play.


Merriam-Webster is the wrong horse if you want to force two syllables given that Merriam-Webster’s Collegiate Dictionary (11th ed.) has several acceptable pronunciations, one syllable (rhyming with “home”) and two syllables (with the second pronounced like “um” or “im” or “em”).

All on page 956 if you'd like to check ;)

https://archive.org/details/merriamwebstersc00merr_6/page/95...


Bedlam..

First down.


Kind of hypocritical on my behalf. I'm more of a descriptivist when it comes to language; I see it as a living breathing creation that is whatever we make of it, as long as the message is reliably traversing to mind to mind, it is correct.

As a native speaker from the US who knows it as two syllables, what region of the US are you referring to? Is this a deep south thing?

Poem is one or two. Artistic license is deployed to enforce use of the singular

The mischievous part of me wonders what would happen if torrentfreak wrote a matching article, with content that messes with the paper...

Papers with claims that don't match their citations aren't a new phenomenon, so probably nothing.

Using slot machine technology to hallucinate a fake paper is new though.

They couyld have indeed presented data that only AIs would scrape or notice... which would be entirely legitimate on their part to do.

My own website spews bogus content and misinformation about almost any topic to misconfigured scrapers. I expect to eventually see it in some training sets.


Do you just show a different page to scrappers? How do you know they are misconfigured? I would like to implement something similar

Well, the only proper use of some of the sites is an audience of a half dozen people who know the correct login page.

How would one implement that?

For a while I just did markov chains. Now I use it as an experiment to use agents to generate plausible yet pointless websites.

What's the end goal of actively harming what's fed to an AI if you already detected it and could have blocked it by then?

> actively harming

Are they force feeding these information to AI?


"Actively harming" is a technically true and also legitmately crazy way to frame this.

Which the AI then passes on to a user who doesn't know any better and then you get recipes for mixing bleach and ammonia for curing asthma (extreme example).

If I write a story that includes a character mixing bleach and ammonia for curing asthma and publish it on my website, am I responsible for an LLM company ingesting my story without contact or my consent and then at some point in the future providing a user instructions to mix bleach and ammonia for curing asthma?

If you do this with the intent of LLMs scraping this and this ending up in the corpus used by LLMs, it is indeed very illegal, especially as LLMs become more load bearing for medicine, defense, etc.

very illegal? under what law? the one that's embedded in the us constitution that asserts that congress shall make no law affecting freedom of speech (and is incorporated against the states)? seems highly unlikely if so

Most current laws around booby traps and sabotage. Intent obviously matters a lot, and under the stated intent this is illegal.

This is one of the worst legal takes I’ve ever seen. Well done.

I have no obligation to provide accurate or safe material for scraping. Intent is a non-starter here because nothing else is satisfied.

The only obligation here is on the LLM providers.


What’s illegal?

The site clearly says for authorised users only.

The robots file already excludes scrapers.

Yet it often is pumping out a solid Gbit of traffic.


And the LLM, does it bear no responsibility here?

An LLM is not a person, and as such cannot "bear responsibility."

They obviously mean whoever created the LLM. We don't judge the weapon, we judge whoever uses the weapon

I'm not sure that that is an obvious claim these days, with the whole "agents going rogue" press releases.

Is that what you're doing?

On the contrary, I'm saying is that it's not okay that the world becomes worse-off, as long as it's not [the LLM companies'] fault. If it means they don't have a viable business model by only ingesting data that they have permission for and is verified, and by being held fully responsible for the content they serve their users - in order to prevent the world from becoming worse-off - then they should not operate.

This seems like a two wrongs don't make a right situation. Yes, the LLM providers are in the wrong for not vetting data. But in my mind, the person poisoning data is also partially responsible for negative downstream effects that are caused. What % of the blame is up for argument, but neither side is 0% in the wrong.

So the type and content of what fiction I write should be controlled so that LLM companies may choose for the sake of maximum profit to haphazardly collect any data they please and to neglect the safety and validity of the content they choose to serve users?

If it's meant to be fiction and not presented as a real-world fact, then I don't see any problem on your part. If you're presenting it as fact solely to trick an LLM into believing it, then yes I see a problem.

It is a common trope in some forms of fiction for the author to insist "this really happened I promise"

It is still meant to be understood that it obviously did not happen, despite such claims


We call it self defense when you fight back against a much better equipped attacker.

If you fire a gun in self defense and hit a bystander, you're still responsible.

In this case its more a, i stole a gun at a house burglared and sold it on the black market scenario. How about honest work and honest living?

If the ants take poisoned sugar tobthe queen, maybe they leave that house alone from now on?

It's entirely the responsibility of ai companies how much of the internet's trash they deliver to their users

And that user has no responsibility for creating the slop to begin with, for the sole purpose of poisoning a resource that others rely on?

No

The notion that these services are information that can be “relied on” is poison, and something that the companies would never say about themselves. Imagine as the bottom of ChatGPT it said “no need to doubt the results, this Oracle can be relied on”


I don't think you understand how illegal this is. As these models start being used for autonomous decisionmaking in medicine, defense and whatnot, this will be considered industrial sabotage and if it ever harms someone you are so fucked.

I'm not even debating the morality of AI and LLM companies here, this is just fact. If a pharma company is illegally using your water source, you cannot poison it knowing the pharma company will then use this water. Well, not unless you like prison.


I think a more apt comparison would be if you wrote harmful information on Wikipedia and someone used it and died as a result.

I'm not sure what U.S. laws say about that though.

Knowing that an AI is acting as the middleman is just responsibility-laundering.


If writing harmful information online (including wikipedia) was something illegal, wouldn't there be just a ton of currently illegal shit online? Like anti-vax stuff?

At present, nobody does. You'd have to see what a court case says.

But it would have to be the case that it's reasonable to expect people to rely on an LLM for medical advice. Which would in turn require that the creator of the LLM is not responsible.


It’s not illegal to lie on the internet

It should be illegal to make life and death decisions based on automated reasoning. I know it’s coming and I’m being a curmudgeon but I will hold fast, the liar is not responsible for being believed.

I like the Wikipedia comparison, forget about the automated reasoning. Wikipedia does not make any representations as to the truthfulness of its content. If you’re a medical doctor and believe some wiki graffiti, you are the responsible party, you are the one that’s supposed to know better.

If you want to rebut I’m most interested in knowing what law you believe would be cited in a data poisoning case.


One day the automated decisionmaking systems will be far better at making decisions than us. That day is not far off. At some point, we will turn to these systems for our most important life-and-death decisions. I don't think that's irrational.

In this era, intending to corrupt the automated decisionmaking systems we rely on, will certainly be sabotage (if done with that intent, as is the case with OP). However, I don't think any sabotage would actually work well in the era of superintelligence, so perhaps the point is moot.


Poison? Seriously? As if false references, perpetual false confidence, sycophantic suicidal encouragement, and convoluted spaghetti code wasn't enough. 90% of what these things fling is poison and the quicker the general public recognizes it the quicker they won't be duped into taking them at face value. The training sets are already going to be full of AI generated garbage. This just hastens the recognition.

Absolutely.

And for this the company responsible for the AI disseminating this information in such a way that people are relying on it should be prosecuted and/or sued into oblivion.

The original poster of the bad information should perhaps as well, but only also if it was reasonable to rely on them for this.

(We have the legal principles, we just need to use them.)


They feel harmed by the AI companies training AI on their data so they feel retaliation is justified.

More like I’m just annoyed at them not respecting robots.txt on a site that has nothing of value for them.

While I suspect it's not quite what you meant, yes, whois is deprecated and is on its way out:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Registration_Data_Access_Proto...

And obligatory hn link:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43384069


I suspect it may be too late for Trump at least - he has managed to demonstrate to Iran that they have more power than they thought they did, and it may be quite difficult to return to the pre-war state of affairs.

It seems many countries around the straits are now thinking "Hmm, we can charge ships to pass through...".

I don't think that would have happened without Trump.


Yeah, it's definitely not going to be back to where it was before he started his Iran debacle. He broke it. But now gaming it out it seems like him just deciding to withdraw would be the best outcome that we could probably get. Otherwise just sticking around in the area and issuing threats just causes Iran to react and that effectively keeps the SoH closed (heck, the US even closes it sometimes).


Geography wins over technology.


I'd hope that the offenders in these incidents would pay off the victims in such a way that everyone walks away happy (or happy-ish).

But I suspect that's probably a hope somewhat in vain.


The way they've filled out the application surprises me.

There are questions that literally say as part of the question "Choose Yes or No", so they've answered "true"...

And Q165 is fun: "Is it likely that consumers will face significant risks if domain names in the TLD(s) in the application are abused?" Answer: "No"


https://newtlds.lol/

Apparently .agent the most requested with 13 orgs applying for it.

Followed by .bit with 11, and .api, .brand, .hub with 10 each.

And apparently "Link Freedom Group Ltd" has 213 active applications, and "XYZ.COM LLC" has 182 active applications.


While you're not wrong, I suspect that .lan sees more real world usage than .local

It may not be an official standard, but it does have some weight as a de-facto standard.

I've tried briefly to try and find some numbers to back that up, but can't find much beyond apple's bonjour vs consumer routers - although I've seen companies with AD domains using .lan as well. (Although, I've also seen companies using 1.0.0.0/8 for their internal addressing...)


I've habitually used .home since 2014 when its ICANN delegation was indefinitely deferred.


it definitely gets used, and i hope that the application is denied, but i also hope this is another wake up call for people that pick unreserved domains.


Wake up to what? The fact ICANN have failed in their governance responsibilities by not encoding a widely used defacto private namespace into the reserved namespace RFC and considering delegating it publicly?


whether you consider this a failure of ICANN or not is completely beside the point.

if you choose to use an unreserved domain, you are choosing to accept the risk of something like this happening. take ownership of your choices. "but other people use it" is not a great defense.


Bear in mind the advice on these things changes over time, and it's possible that the situation in the past may not have been as clear cut.

As an example, at one point in the past (I think in the 90's?), Microsoft recommended using .local for AD domains, whereas now they explicitly recommend against it.


It's a default on OpenWRT and Ubiquiti devices. I don't think consumers should be blamed nor suffer because they didn't know their pricey Ubiquiti router was using a de facto but not officially reserved TLD. you can blame Ubiquiti i guess, but once upon a time there were no reserved TLDs and it was the job of ICANN to deny new ones that had widespread understanding not to be internet routable, so it's not like there's no precedent for Ubiquiti's behavior either.


it would be more defensible of ubiquiti 7 years ago, before the whole .dev situation. not as much anymore


21 separate applications for some variation on .agent/.agentic

I'm guessing that'll end up being expensive for someone...


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