IBM did a ton of consumer advertising for OS/2 while Windows 95 was delayed. (There even was an OS/2 Warp college bowl game.) So they moved some copies, but it probably mostly just people like me messing around.

Mainframes went right to virtual machines, so possibly bypassed much of the multiuser faux-security which has always plagued unix. Of course, now they run Linux partitions and get all the same bugs.

> If you roll your own - and you will

That's the best case. Usually it was just thousands of lines of jquery spaghetti.

When these conversations come up they always degrade to two worthless arguments:

1. I tried to write vanilla JavaScript once and failed miserably so therefore humanity is completely incapable of accomplishing such

2. I cannot organize instructions to save my life so therefore the result for all developers must always be spaghetti

The unspoken third option is that the people making these claims can’t write software and need to blame something else, however irrationally, because they lack the maturity to find a way forward.

Nah, the argument is worthless because apparently HN hasn't built anything more complicated than a contact form, therefore telling claude to use HTMX is always the answer.

I'm just reflecting what I've seen in the field. Webapps evolve over time and sometimes that has meant just ladling on more kludgy javascript event handling. If there is a homegrown state manager, that's usually better than the alternative. (although the frameworks are mostly just fine)

The guy above makes this point across the thread and I'm pretty certain he has never worked in a team on a complex app.

Why would you say that? What evidence leads to this conclusion?

I suspect your point is that Angular or React must exist as the primary work product for a team to operate, but why? Are you suggesting that nobody is capable of writing software without a third party framework to tell them what to do? To me this sounds like you have absolutely no idea how to program or that you have no faith that anybody can program original solutions... except for the people who invent large frameworks.

> Why would you say that? What evidence leads to this conclusion?

Your own comments.

> Are you suggesting that nobody is capable of writing software without a third party framework to tell them what to do?

No. Not at all. I'm suggesting they're unwise if they do it voluntarily (as in: not constrained by compliance etc.).

> to me this sounds like you have absolutely no idea how to program

I'm not surprised. Surely you roll your own STD as well? Boy, I really hope you never import a function from any library. Otherwise you would be just like us, the stupid idiots who can't write original code. While we're at it, hopefully you don't build upon an operating system as well, since any reasonable dev would be rolling their own. In all seriousness: You and me both build solutions on millions of lines of other people's code. I'm really wondering why you're acting so high and mighty because you're using a couple hundred lines less.

> no faith that anybody can program original solutions

Original solutions can be created just fine with library code.

When these retorts come up they always degrade to two worthless arguments:

1. Ad hominem attacks on the original commenter

2. The arrogance and limited viewpoint that ignores the very fact that this can be observed by non-original writers of code, and that this scenario is so common that it coined an original term and spawned an entire industry of clean-uppers.

There is no ad hominem, and yes, obviously anybody who does not accept your operating restrictions is clearly arrogant.

Ad hominem literally translates as "to the man". It is a direct attack on the person in conversation instead of the subject of conversation, which does not apply on nameless third parties.

> Ad hominem literally translates as "to the man". It is a direct attack on the person in conversation instead of the subject of conversation, which does not apply on nameless third parties.

They clearly feel personally attacked by your statement. Almost as if there is some truth to it.

People don't respond well to "everybody doing X is an idiot without skills". Who knew?

You called people idiots and accused them of having no ability to write software. That is a personal attack.

There is a difference between something being usually a way in your experience and something always being X categorically. You are mixing most and all in an argument.

Tedious and replying to the wrong post?

Where's "stateless" coming from? The underlying purpose of frameworks like React is to manage mutations to the fundamentally stateful DOM.

A car purpose is to take you from a to b, so lets put the gasoline in the cup holders.

This comment makes no sense

Youtube was full of pirate music videos. If Google (or some other heavyweight) didn't buy them, they probably would have been sued out of existence like Napster and etc.

There was some discussion about the Finder icon in a previous thread a while back. It's a riff on the original 'Happy Mac' power-on-self-test icon. My take is it's based on the reflection of the user's face against the monitor, reflecting enjoyable human-computer interactions. Also you get a smilely face on your screen.

This icon goes back to the Mac Clone era when they wanted separate branding for System 7.5 etc. Kinda funny it survived Jobs and is still around.

Also, IMO there's a lot of undue nostalgia for Snow Leopard. But that 3D Dock was cool. (It didn't do that when you put your dock where it belongs, on the right side.)

> server based (which it should have been in the first place)

Server-based photoshop clone sounds more like VNC/RDP, for this sort of thing client processing is a better UX.

IIRC they did have streets, but people were allowed to camp 'off the grid'.

Because you could get pirated games from the other kids at school. Or at least that seemed like the most popular reason.

As Zed said, it was fastcgi. But yeah, Rails 1.x got a lot of hype before it had a functional application server.

Aside from the actual politics, DHH is clearly in "fuck you mode". I certainly don't trust that he's going to make decisions in the interest of the broader rails community.