DHS was founded in 2003, as was ICE. The country got along for 227 years without these organizations, they aren't some bedrock thing from time immemorial.
Recognizing that the current structure and mode of operation of these organizations is problematic and leading to bad outcomes also doesn't mean flipping to fully open borders with zero law enforcement as some imply every time this is brought up.
> DHS was founded in 2003, as was ICE. The country got along for 227 years without these organizations, they aren't some bedrock thing from time immemorial.
The creation DHS was a reorganization of existing government functions. ICE existed before 2003: one bit was part of INS and another bit was part of the Customs Service.
Patrolling the border and immigration law enforcement have been going on since before any of us were born.
This is not entirely true, CBP still exists independent of ICE. Immigration enforcement within the interior, especially in the fashion we’ve seen recently, is a relatively new phenomena.
The fact that 9/11 happened does not imply that DHS and ICE as currently structured and operating are necessary. At most it implies _some_ change might have been necessary, but not definitely _this_ change. It certainly doesn't mean we can never look for reform.
> The fact that 9/11 happened does not imply that DHS and ICE as currently structured and operating are necessary.
Never said that it does. I’m not in favor of the domestic surveillance dragnet or Trump’s usage of ICE as shock troops and bodysnatchers. Reform is absolutely needed; eliminating the functions of DHS and ICE entirely is foolhardy. The lies and propaganda painting all immigrants as violent radicals don’t change the reality that there is a subset of evil people intent on doing harm.
The biggest false flag of all time, which led directly to the fascist policies we're talking about and the death of millions of innocent people in the Middle East? I wonder who benefited from that huh?
Either you don’t know what a false flag is or you are way off the conspiracy deep end. Terrorism has always existed, modern society has just made it easier to kill en masse. America’s misadventures in the Middle East definitely instigated the conflict and the attacks but it’s factually incorrect to imply 9/11 was orchestrated by the US
You sound nuts. I’m not denying the existence of false flags. There is zero evidence to support a false flag theory for 9/11. The intelligence failures were a result of organizational inefficiency and incompetence, not malice.
Given the intense scrutiny of the event you’d think there’d be some evidence if it was actually a false flag, no? It’s pure fantasy. Frankly it’s more likely the 9/11 conspiracy theories are planted by Russian operatives to sow dissent.
There's actually a ton of evidence to support 9/11 being a false flag. Dancing Israelis, arrested Israelis (did you know we deported hundreds of them immediately after 9/11 for spying?), everything having to do with Larry Silverstein and Howard Lutnick, George Bush meeting with Osama Bin Laden's brother on 9/10... and of course Israel being the only party that benefited from 9/11.
All of this is easy to verify and well documented. I'll add that Netanyahu/mossad regularly brag about psyops and false flags. Netanyahu was just on 60 Minutes talking about how they can plant false evidence on your phone roughly a month ago.
Did you know that Larry Silverstein was good friends with Netanyahu and talked to him every week before 9/11? Don't take my word for it, Haaretz did a now deleted article on him: https://archive.ph/R1Yzw
DHS is brand new, has caused horror and terror, and soaked up tons of funding that could go to literally anything else.
It doesn't need to exist. Keep the customs checks, keep the border crossing folks. Keep port inspections. Run ourselves like a normal country and like we did for hundreds of years.
Re 2: There’s so many gov agencies with overlapping responsibilities that I’m actually surprised you ask this. You can totally close a number of them and still have a functioning government on paper. Reality might turn out different.
As per your second question, I have no answer. Dems are so dysfunctional it’s beyond parody.
I saw something recently about stun cuffs or something like that. Basically an electric torture device, being commissioned for US prisons. It might have even been a chair. This stuff has to stop.
I remember Portland. Sadly it burnt to the ground. No one lives there now, because there are no buildings.
Wait, I'm hearing reports. Reports that literally no city has been burnt to the ground due to protests? None at all? And this HN account is just out of touch?
My sweet summer child. You know how LRADs are deployed against US civilians? You know how chemical munitions are deployed against US civilians? (Specifically munitions that are considered illegal to deploy in war, but are apparently acceptable to deploy by police?) How flashbang grenades launched from handheld launchers are deployed against US civilians? How about the military personnel carriers and MRAPs?
You think those didn't start as restricted to some theater of war?
Go read up on the 1033 program. Or the DHS Grant Program, the Justice Assistance Grant program, or the 1122 program.
> Specifically munitions that are considered illegal to deploy in war, but are apparently acceptable to deploy by police?
the reasoning for this is less exciting that you'd like. its illegal in war because war is anarchy, and ypu cant tell what chemical weapons an opponent is using, and so proportional response is the worst variation you can think of.
when theyre used by the cops, you know exactly what they are using, and there isnt a chemical weapon escalation worry
If you cannot afford a lawyer, and the prosecution offers you a choice:
a) Go to trial. Lose your job. Get life altering debt. Spend a year or more stressfully fighting. Have your movements controlled, maybe be imprisoned. And THEN maybe you get proven innocent. Then there's a risk you get found guilty and face severe consequences.
b) Say you are guilty. Promise to pay a couple grand. You go home to your family tonight. Keep your nose clean and we'll seal the record in three years.
Again, it doesn't happen to tons of people or to normal people. Quit reading Reddit headlines and look around you unless that is the type of people in your life. Certainly not mine or anyone I know
Maybe your cultural values aren't my cultural values. Maybe you need to consider who you are excluding by suggesting that using a curse word is unacceptable?
Cursing has a long tradition in lower economic class culture, in some minority cultures, in queer culture, heck in mainstream cultures worldwide we say "shit", etc. You want them all to conform to your one view of how professionals should be? The curse word isn't directed at you, it isn't directed at anyone you know, or even at a person.
No, I think maybe I'd rather live in a world where people are colorful, use language that's authentic to them, and include more people in the dialog.
>>Maybe you need to consider who you are excluding by suggesting that using a curse word is unacceptable?
I am. Thus the complaint. I would think the general audience here is of a higher caliber than low-class cultures whose values and education can't rise above profanity.
Profanity is fine, even among the well-educated and elite classes. I think you're being a bit puritanical here. I've encountered this attitude before (my octogenarian dad loses his mind when I say "fuck", which I do many times daily), but there's really nothing behind all the pearl clutching - sometimes people curse, and that's Just Fine.
Ah, so racism and classism it is then. Can't be having those "poors" here on our spotless orange site. Want to say something homophobic and or sexist before we continue?
For a second I thought this was that 90s era game about the space race where you play a tank pilot on the moon fighting the USSR in a first person rts.
I'm sure this game shares some DNA or history, but man, big nostalgia hit.
It's inspired by BattleZone which I loved/hated back in the day at the arcade for being too hard. I never imagined I would become much later a regular BZFlag league player. Come take a look, the community shrank over the years but we're still having fun.
This was absolutely happening before 2016. It might have been unheard of, to you, prior to then. But countries have tried to change the results of US elections since forever.
Why? The same reason South Africa put on a media blitz during apartheid.
When your country gets worldwide news for atrocities it is committing, leadership in those countries will do anything to change public opinion. (Except stop committing atrocities, I suppose.)
When education is not liberating, the dream of the oppressed is to be oppressors. We must seek not to invert the relationship, but in fact to humanize both sides. Teach them empathy as justice is served to make whole the oppressed.
I don't see how things are improved by conducting a witch hunt. Rather expend that energy at doing things better - showing how things should be done, create by action a positive contrast to the actions you would condemn.
Maybe if those where are in public service, would actually do their jobs and serve the public we would all be better off.
It's a hard thing to do - letting people get away with murder - but if the alternative is to expand the current divisions in society, is it the best outcome for that society?
I don't have the answers, but I know it's very easy to point fingers and say "it's all their fault".. They have been doing it for years, and have shown it works, do you also want to take up their methods?
The implication of "witch hunt" is that there isn't really anything to find; authorities are abusing their power to harass someone for political reasons.
Why would a billionaire known for bribing authorities pay Alina Habba $50MM (for no apparent reason) immediately before receiving a presidential pardon? If we continue to let people like this get away with committing crimes right out in the open, we're never going to get back to a world where the rule of law matters.
We can't let accusing your political enemies of a crime as you are actively committing the same crime continue to be a get-out-of-jail-free card. There's no both-sides here. One side is obscenely corrupt, the other is... the best we have at the moment.
> When education is not liberating, the dream of the oppressed is to be oppressors. We must seek not to invert the relationship, but in fact to humanize both sides.
(Downthread:)
> Prison is necessarily oppressive.
> Sure sounds like you want to oppress a people to me.
Are you arguing that we should strive for a society that does not imprison anyone, or are you asking people to recognize prison as oppression without excluding prison as a valid/necessary/reasonable treatment for some people?
> Teach them empathy as justice is served to make whole the oppressed.
While the oppressed should not have sole decision-making authority or unlimited options (and afaik the oppressed almost never if ever advocate for such), generally the evaluation of whether the oppressed have been made whole (and whether the oppressed can be made whole in the first place) is for the oppressed to make, not for others or the law to decide.
Let us also recognize fundamental differences between oppressing people for their identities or their not-acted-upon thoughts and oppressing people for their actions.
I would abolish prison, except in the absolutely narrowest possible set of circumstances. Even then, prison would not be punitive. I am firmly of the belief that most crime comes from lack of education, lack of material needs, or lack of mental health and drug care.
The quote about oppressed becoming oppressors is a loose summary of "The Pedagogy of the Oppressed" where a central thesis is that it is relatively easier for the oppressed to fight to become oppressors rather than seek the liberatory education that would free both.
It's fairly common throughout modern history for a change in power to result in oppressed taking over the systems of the oppressor. You see it VERY commonly in US politics, as evidenced by the insinuation up thread by another poster that we should kill people.
And yes, you are right that the oppressed get to decide when they are made whole. I am specifically pointing out that for many of them, they choose the systems of the oppressor to achieve that, themselves becoming oppressors in the act of making themselves whole. Rather than making themselves whole through ending the cycle of violence and elevating everyone.
No thanks. We've seen this nonsense play out over the last few decades. Republicans do evil and illegal shit. Get voted out. Democrats promise to be bipartisan in their new administration. Bring Republicans into their cabinets and appoint them to the highest positions in the land. Public doesn't like the economy or some other bullshit excuse and vote Republicans back in. Republicans who say Democrats are evil baby killing pet eating monsters who want you to work for illegal immigrants on welfare. Republicans purge Democrats from as much as they can get away with. Often with more illegal shit. The country starts falling apart so Democrats are elected again. They promise to be bipartisan and heal the country. They put Republicans in their cabinet and in important positions in government.
Literally all this appeasement has lead to MAGA. You let conservatives get away with evil and illegal shit decade after decade trying to be "empathetic" and "understand them" and "be bipartisan" while they call for your head.
> “Meet me in the middle, says the unjust man.
You take a step towards him, he takes a step back.
Meet me in the middle, says the unjust man.”
The democrats dream is to become the oppressor. The dems are exactly who I am being critical of. I encounter democrats every day who say things like, "maybe we shouldn't let those hicks vote".
And I'm not proposing appeasement. Fascist policy must be stamped out. You can not barter with it.
This is not a "meet in the middle" position I propose. This is a leftist position of "feed everyone, house everyone, care for everyone, wellbeing for all, no matter who".
Yes, all means all. I do not care who you are, you deserve food, water, healthcare, housing, etc. If you have done harm to others, you must work to make them whole through your acts, not by rotting in a cell -- restorative justice not punitive justice.
Empathy is not the same as morality, where we all have different views on what's correct. I said nothing of moral wisdom. Empathy is the ability to put oneself in someone else's shoes, which some people demonstrably lack. (Whoever that short guy who ran ICE was, clearly lacked empathy.)
It requires structural changes, yes, but different from what you suggest.
It starts with empathy for the student. Recognizing that everyone deserves love and care. Showing first and foremost that the teachers are not seeking to be better than, but rather alongside.
It includes adding marginalized voices to pedagogy. If all you've ever heard are stories from one perspective, you tend to other the outgroup. Simply listening to other human experiences is one of the strongest ways to build empathy.
Then we must ask the people learning to examine their society. Does it dispossess anyone? You've heard from marginalized people, are there structural reasons why those people are marginalized? Could we change them?
And you make this the norm for education. It's not wedged into every lesson, but it's considered by teachers. You grow empathy generationally. You make it available online, you speak about it regularly (society doesn't only teach in classrooms).
You start to provide everyone with basics. The less we need to compete to survive, the more room we have to collaborate.
Maybe you don't reach every adult. Thats ok. Maybe you cannot teach everyone. But if you surround all those people who do have well developed empathy, their ability to cause damage is severely blunted.
