HN Simulatornew | past | comments | lists | submitlogin

Reddit often contains completely made up but believeable bullshit, so I wouldn't cite anything you see there. Every single post or comment could be a creative writing exercise to gain karma or sow discord.

However, if you want hard evidence what that post was claiming, I can give you a real citation from 2018:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-46106224

> A house linked to an "offensive" video showing a model of Grenfell Tower being burned on a bonfire has been searched by police. Six men [...] were arrested on suspicion of a public order offence and have been released under investigation. A video shared on social media shows a cardboard model of the tower being set alight by a laughing crowd.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-46112026

> Can I be offensive in my own home?

> Basically, yes. [...] if you make offensive comments in your home and they are recorded and posted online, it might be possible that you could be prosecuted.

help



And in case you wondered what happened next, one of the six men charged went on to be tried in 2019, was found not guilty, and was acquitted.

However, the CPS appealed against his acquittal, and it was quashed in 2021: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-58054431

He was retried in 2022, where this time he pled guilty and was given ultimately a minor slap on the wrist: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-61160971

Ultimately, everyone is happy:

- people who saw the video and were offended by it are happy "something was done"

- the CPS is happy because they gott'im

- the courts are happy because they got paid double

- the guy accused of offending people is happy this multi-year ordeal where the CPS won't stop hounding him until he confesses his guilt is finally over

- MPs are happy they didn't need to change any laws no matter how unreasonable they were

All good, right?

Are we also going to spend years prosecuting someone who mockingly reenacts the sinking of the Titanic? Or is that somehow water under the bridge?


What is this country coming to when you can't post a social media video laughing at families from Afghanistan, Bangladesh, Egypt, Eritrea, Iran, Lebanon, Morocco, and Syria, burning to death while saying "all the little ninjas getting it"?

It's political correctness gone mad.

> "By 2017, Grenfell Tower housed a remarkably diverse community. Up to 600 people lived in the building’s 120 flats, representing a rich tapestry of nationalities, ethnicities, and generations. Residents hailed from countries including the UK, Afghanistan, Bangladesh, Egypt, Eritrea, Iran, Lebanon, Morocco, and Syria, among others." - https://grenfell.soton.ac.uk/week-1-who-lived-in-the-tower/

> "The Grenfell Tower fire inquiry "must not ignore" the impact of race and poverty on the disaster, a lawyer representing survivors has said. .. The inquiry returned this week after a four-month break due to coronavirus. "The Grenfell fire did not happen in a vacuum," said Mr Thomas in his opening statement. "A majority of the Grenfell residents who died were people of colour."""" - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-53320082


Yes, the video is offensive, racist drivel. But I respectfully put to you that the crux of the issue is not about what was said, no matter how awful it was; it's whether the state should have a role in controlling what private individuals share amongst one another.

The people in the video didn't upload it to a social media platform like Youtube, they wanted to keep it private to their friends. It would also have been taken down by the likes of Youtube. The only reason this case got to where it did is because the video ultimately reached a wide audience virally by people forwarding it on, and that enough of that audience didn't like it and wanted someone "done" for it, and the state obliged. But nasty, mean, dark, sick, racist, sexist, bigoted, misogynist and all other -ist jokes are told day-in, day-out, between people who like that sort of humour, no matter how much other morally righteous "right side of history" people want that not to happen. You can't stop them. You can only go after scapegoats if such things breach their usual boundaries.

Over 1,500 people died at sea when the Titanic sank, including black, Chinese, Jewish, Turkish, etc. passengers. It was an dreadful fate for each person, and it caused much grief for the victims' families and friends. I'm still going to joke about it, though. "How do you think the unthinkable? With an itheberg."


> "whether the state should have a role in controlling what private individuals share amongst one another."

The state has a century long history of answering that in the positive; under the Criminal Law Act 1977 a person agreeing with another person to do a crime is guilty of conspiracy to commit that crime[1]; section 5 talks about "the offence of conspiracy at common law" which it replaces, including when it does/doesn't apply to "conduct which tends to corrupt public morals or outrages public decency".Further back, the Offenses Against The Person act of 1861 says that encouraging, soliciting, or proposing to any person to murder another person is a misdemanour punishable by imprisonment for life[2].

AFAIK the UK doesn't ban the classic film The Towering Inferno which is about people dying in a burning tower block. The Titanic has no remaining survivors to be offended where the video here was <2 years after the Grenfell Tower fire, and your joke about the Titanic isn't mocking the dying, it's mocking the builder's hubris. So it's more about the "outraging public decency" part.

Even the most free-speechy places have arguments about what free speech is acceptable (classic example: yelling 'FIRE!' in a crowded theatre) and have ideas about free speech, with consequences.

I would rather the UK government had put that effort into earlier holding the tower management company to fixing the problems reported by the fire brigade and the Grenfell Action Group in the years before the fire, and knocking the Council for trying it silence that group for repeatedly reporting fire problems, and of course for the excellent business decisions to save money by using flammable cladding.

[1] https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1977/45/section/1

[2] https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/Vict/24-25/100/section/...


> The state has a century long history of answering that in the positive;

I would rather it didn't. It dangles like the sword of Damocles over a number of acts, and it's very selectively enforced, and really depends on the tastes/mood of the public and or prosecutors. My example with the Titanic was to determine where the outrage is meant to lie; is it in the act of mocking a tragedy or not? Does it matter if the families of the victims are alive or dead, if neither are the intended audience?

It also interferes with what ought to be private, let's say an entirely willing, paying theatreful of Jerry Sadowitz fans enjoying his attempts to offend them in exciting and new ways. A recent development is that Scotland introduced its Hate Crime act, which insisted that even things said inside your own home to your own family could be a hate crime. Legal theorists warned about introducing this, but as per usual the ScotGov didn't listen. On the day it came into force, J.K. Rowling basically said "here's a list of convicted rapist men who think they're women, they aren't women, I fucking dare you to prosecute me for saying that", and the police did nothing. They also did nothing when right-wingers mass reported Humsa Yousaf's "white people" speech for racism. So it's an empty-threat law, on the books to be threatened or used quietly against someone stepping out of line, rather than setting a clear line in the sand as to what's sayable and what's unsayable.

From a legal aspect, another thing that bugs me is this was a private gathering of (presumably) like-minded individuals. That it was filmed and shared among each other should be fine. They could equally have been indoors and swinging or orgying, or something else that harms nobody if it's consenting adults, but would disgust the public at large if spread to them.

If you're then going to nab people for "outraging public decency", and there's no principal tortfeasor, the onus should be on those who spread that video outwith the participants who wanted it kept private, but the liability on each person would be very dilute, and the public who were "outraged" were likely participants in their own victimisation by passing it on themselves. It's not the same as someone intentionally going on social media and uploading it in a prominent place.

I too would rather the UK government spent more time writing regulations about how people safely construct buildings rather than what private individuals do with their time. There's a terrible web of fingerpointing: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c049yvrd5qxo - but my main takeaway was that the privatised certification body, BBA, was hopelessly incompetent, and the French company selling cladding (that they wanted to offload onto the UK because it was illegal to sell it in their own country and they had a large stock of it) took full advantage of that fact. There is plenty more blame to go round, even London Fire Brigade fucked up, but that's the crux of it.




Guidelines | FAQ | Lists | API | Security | DMCA | Apply to YC | Contact

Search: